Hi All – as some of you may know based on Alice’s article in the last Newsletter we on the Board are considering the idea of creating a meat buyers club that would work in the same way that the sale of local Thanksgiving turkeys is already done. It would mean that those members who do eat meat would be able to order ethically and locally raised meat that would come to the co-op frozen to be pick up. The reason we have decided to readdress this issue is that many members have written in the member book that they would like the option of buying meat in ways that does not support the inhumane, unethical and environmentally destructive the practices of factory farm system. Alice has reported that she has already received quite a few responses, most of them positive, from members who are interested in the option. We have over 5000 members and given the population trends most are no doubt meat eaters. As a Board member I think we need to support all of our member’s food choices and to do so while up holding our co-operative principles- as in our commitment to local, sustainable and ethical food production. I am including below a few links of interest. One is for a list of all the chemicals in factory farm meat that shows all the problems with super market meat. The other link is for a book that I have recently come across that I think raises some interesting issues in the on-going debate as to whether or not to eat (sell) meat or not in relation to all the complex issues involved..
We are interested in your views as members so please post here and let us know your thoughts or you can also call Alice directly. We are hoping to post a few times a month on topics of interest to create a lively blog spot, so check back and social network with us!
Thanks for your thoughts…
Phoebe Godfrey (board president)
Links:
Downloadable PDF: FSIS DIRECTIVE -SAFE AND SUITABLE INGREDIENTS USED IN THE PRODUCTION OF MEAT AND POULTRY PRODUCTS
Book: Vegetarian Myth Food Justice Sustainability
Ditto to Mark—-
All- I’d like to clarify a false assumption and why I wrote the first entry as I did.
Firstly, the absence of the blog link on the Co-op home page has nothing to do with me. I am not the web master and do not know why or how the blog got moved. You can send the web master and email and ask her if you feel so inclined.
Secondly, the question of selling meat or not came up to the board based on comments by members in the member book requesting that we again look into the possibility of selling local, organic, “ethically” raised meat (obviously this is a debated issue but I am not going there at this time). Since it is the board’s job to attend to all members we decided to have another vote. This vote was announced in the Compost at the same time that I decided to create this blog as an experiment in having the first co-op blog. I also decided to write the entry blog from the perspective that selling such type of meat could be a viable option for meat-eating members, as opposed to buying meat from factory farms. Since the co-op already does NOT sell meat it made sense to present some reason why we as a co-op made up of 0ver 5000 members with varying positions on the issue might consider doing so. That is why I presented the position that I did, including the provocative book.
The point was to have a civil thoughtful discussion prior to the vote and to see if we could serve all our members in a co-operative way.
Obviously this blog has been successful in getting people engaged, although the some entries for me personally read more like “attacks” on me than an individual’s position / opinion on the topic at hand.
Still, I again encourage you all to vote and thank you for your interest.
Finally, if anyone has a new idea for a blog topic pls. let me know as obviously after the vote this one will no longer be needed.
In co-operation
phoebe
Questions on the sale of meat at the Willimantic Food Co-op.
- Will staff/Coop member voluunteers/Co-op board members inspect farms to ensure animals are treated well?
- Will staff/Co-op member volunteers/Co-op board members attend animal slaughter to ensure they experience a so-called humane death?
- Where will space be found for a new freezer as co-op floor space is already at its limit?
- Will the meat be sold at a wholesale or retail price, and will the co-op make a profit after the cost of labor to handle the meat and electricity and the new freezer are factored in?
- What new regulations will be imposed by the Town of Windham Board of Health on the sale of meat?
- What extra premiums will be paid for insurance if meat is sold?
- What extra safeguards will be in place to keep meat and vegetables separate at the checkout counter?
I sincerely thank all who are working on this, and I look forward to seeing answers to these questions posted in good time for people to consider all the angles.
I really appreciated Zaac’s comment which I think pointed out in the spirit of democracy, that we seem to be voting on the wrong question. In light of the fact that the COOP has seen at least two votes where members determined democratically that they were not in favor of meat sales, why are turkeys being sold in the COOP? I would sincerely like to see the scope of this vote broadened and more time given for in person discussion and live debates on this issue.
We cannot simply rush an issue like this which will change the fundamental, nature and character of the COOP without adequate time for debate and discussion. A hidden blog does not a fair informative debate make!
Thanks Tyger! Another legitimate concern is of course the pathogens that meat may carry. While a meat-eater will certainly cook their dinner, it only takes a drop of liquid from a salmonella carrying piece of meat. Is it fair to ask raw food eaters to suffer greater risks due to the choice of another?
And what are those risks precisely? Why is the decision being rushed through without time for a proper investigation and assessment? Shouldn’t those details be transparent before a vote? The big box grocery stores are known to use chemicals, bleach and antibiotic sprays everywhere, and irradiate the vegetables, and then err on the side of overpackaging . Will the COOP resort to such pathogen preventatives? According to the CDC food poisoning causes 76 million illnesses and 5000 deaths in the US yearly.
Phoebe, I hope you don’t read legitimate criticisms of your statements as attacks on your person. I don’t think any were intended that way. However it is indeed “provocative” to quote Lierre Keith, someone who is not only against agriculture, but civilization itself who links vegetarianism to industrial agrictulture, war and environmental destruction, and this is a person who claims to wants to end civilization. She is really crazy, and I don’t think her views are shared by even a small fraction of the over 5000 COOP members and workers, most of whom are “no doubt” vegetarian.
Frankly, it was not appropriate for Phoebe Godfrey to recommend sites, links, or reading material, at all. The blog, however inadequate, should only reflect the opinionated input and sharing of information from members. Anything else is interference.
I also object to the blog being the mode of communication because it only targets and addresses a limited membership audience.
First, of course, you must have a computer, Not everyone does. It should not be taken for granted that they do.
Second, many people are computer shy and relegate their activity to checking mail. They may not be inclined or knowledgeable to search for a blog.
Third, not everyone wants to take the time to come home and stoke up the computer and purposely look for the blog
Fourth, even if you do this, the blog , I found to be difficult to find, even if you are inclined to put in the effort
And finally, you have to know a blog in the meat issue even exists. Who knows about this? It wasn’t announced anywhere that this was the mode of discussion this time. You have to come upon it accidentally (as I did), or be a mind reader.
I strongly believe this forum was denied to many because they did not know it existed and because they might not be able to reach it and participate.
Having the discussion forum at the co-op is far superior. As members shop there they can update themselves on the latest posting, and leave one themselves with no special expertise or effort, except to walk to the bulletin board and pin something up. It’s open to everyone, and not hidden secretly away.
As i have said before, freezing and cooking of meat does not destroy many bacterial contaminants. And after death bacteria proliferate in all decomposing flesh. The hygiene issue was never thoroughly discussed.
What I’d like to know is why these folks who have a problem with our Coop selling meat for human consumption have never had a problem with our Coop selling pet food that contains meat??
I agree with Amos. We ALREADY sell meat. It’s in the pet food and we sell pre-order meat during the holidays. I just don’t get the argument about keeping meat out of the Co-op. It’s already there.
Dear Amos: The selling of pet food is indeed a conundrum in this issue, as it pits the welfare of farm animals against the nutritional needs of dogs and cats. The difference is that dogs and cats are carnivores and need meat to remain healthy. Although I know people whose dogs are healthy on a vegetarian diet, and there are even books that tell how to raise a healthy vegetarian dog. As far as I know, though cats are true carnivores. People are not, in fact quite the opposite.
A true carnivore has the biology ( appropriate enzymes) and anatomy to both digest and pass meat from their systems very quickly. The human biology and anatomy, however is designed to digest slowly and retain food in our digestive tract (which is much longer than a carnivore and also convoluted), the better to extract maximum nourishment out of fibrous foods such as vegetables. Because of this, when we eat meat, instead of passing quickly, it languishes in our intestines and putrefies there. Poisonous toxins filter into our bodies and in addition, just the metabolism of meat produces toxins because we do not have the enzymes that carnivores have. All these toxins trigger the immune system and stress our detoxing systems (liver, kidneys). Without great detail, meat plays a prominent role in many diseases such as vascular and heart disease, kidney, liver, cancers of various kinds and osteoporosis.
People oppose meat on several levels, from human health, and animal suffering (there is no such thing as humane meat), environmental waste and pollution, and world hunger.
For more on all of this, please review “older comments”.
As far as meat already being sold on holidays, —why formalize and expand on that? quite the opposite, –for the sake of consistency, we should not be selling on holidays, either
I hope this helps you to understand why people oppose meat at the co-op.
Those who feel they must eat meat can find it elsewhere, even the so called ethical meat. It is in many other places. For the sake of their own health, and that of our environment, I would wish they think very carefully about this issue. In the meantime, it is very important to vegetarians to have one place in the world where they don’t have to deal with meat, and all the ethical and hygiene issues that accompany it.
For more on this, please review older comments
“ethical local meat”
——————-
It might be local, but there’s nothing ethical about killing living beings for a food we don’t need.
Animal farming (whether industrial, organic, or free-range) thrives on forced pregnancies, separation of mothers from young, tail docking, debeaking, dehorning, and castration of living beings who have a personal interest in their well being and that of their young — and after a fraction of their natural life spans, farming violates their ultimate interest in surviving.
However this issue is decided, there’s no such thing as treating farm animals well. “Humane farming” is a myth.
Right. We already sell meat.
But, that’s a-ok because dogs and cats are carnivores?
But I thought the issue was having meat in the co-op. It’s there already, folks. On the shelves. Not hidden away in a freezer far away from the sales floor. It’s in your face as you turn the corner from the cereal aisle.
Humane farming is most certainly not a myth, and by blocking attempts for a meat buying club, you may just be helping to support the factory farms. Factory farms are definitely inhumane and disgusting, and they pose a real threat to public health.
You will not stop meat eaters from eating meat. So why not offer them an alternative to get their meat from a small scale, local, humane, non-factory source?
And if the issue is having meat on the shelves–well, that argument holds no water as it is already there.
BillieD———–How do you define humane farming?
Hi Barbara,
Humane farming: cattle and chickens roaming free, under blue skies, eating grass, chasing bugs. Not being pumped full of drugs and hormones. Allowed to be with the herd/flock in a natural setting.
I know firsthand the difference. My childhood farm was a factory farm–and it was disgusting. Crowding, bad ventilation, suffocation, animals never knowing what a blade grass tastes like…
I have seen humane pratices firsthand as well and there is a HUGE difference.
You cannot stop meat eating. Why not support those local, small-scale farmers who farm humanely? Factory farms produce meat that is rampant with cruelty and disease. Every little step towards supporting local, humane farms is a step towards stopping the factory farm practice.
Hi, BillieD————–Sounds nice——But that may or may not be true of every humane farm. I think one must know the individual farm to see how humane they are. But however happy their lives may be, every animal has to die in order to reach the dinner plate. So there is the topic of slaughter. If you had the awful experience of a factory farm, I probably don’t need to say to you how horrible slaughterhouses are. This in itself takes the humane out of farm, that and the fact that their lives are cut short at an early age. Small farms are linked with big business through slaughter.
When it comes to the chickens, even small farms get their chickens from big agribusiness hatcheries, where the male chicks are suffocated or ground up alive because they don’t give eggs and are not tender juicy hens. Small farms still do business with agribusiness. I also would like to know whether common practices such as castration, forced breeding, disbudding (painful cutting off of horns, or branding are being practiced on humane farms. If not, they are being done somewhere in the process, and small farms take advantage of it.
I know I cannot stop meat eating. But I do believe that humans will evolve toward vegetarianism eventually. I think we need to in order to all survive on the planet. We cannot support human population with a meat eating philosophy. Meat production dwindles our water supplies, pollutes the environment and takes a great deal of land to produce food for cattle which could be used to grow grains for people. And here’s a thought. What if everyone, I mean every meat eater adopted the progressive view of buying only from the small and humane farm. Small farms can’t support all of humanity and practice humane methods of allowing space and organic feed, etc. If everyone wanted to do it, as you are, the system would quickly revert back to mass production for mass demand. The small farms, therefore, can only support a small elite population, such as yourself. By economic necessity it leaves out most people.
There are other, deeper philosophies of mine about meat which do not really apply to this particular conversation, so I will not go to them. I will say I applaud you for wanting humane treatment, and for caring to that extent. But I would ask you to explore more deeply, and more broadly, how the entire process works.
I have been vegan since 1992. There is life after meat. BillieD, thank you for your reply and for this discussion.
Finally
Barbara,
I know several farmers who do not send their animals to the big slaughterhouses, instead choose to inspect and find their own smaller scale slaughterhouses. these farmers are aware of the inhumane and unsanitary process in most big slaughterhouses, and they choose not to partake. I would bet a lot of the smaller operations feel the same way.
So, to let you know there are farmers out there to are seeking to completely remove themselves from Big Agribusiness. These are the farmers I support.
I think as a country we are a bit addicted to meat, red meat in particular, and could use a bit of nutritional education. That’s one of the many reasons I love my co-op.
I respect your veganism, and I appreciate the discussion.
BillieD—-You seem to know a lot, so tell me—how do these smaller slaughterhouses operate? I mean are they regulated by the Federal USDA? ( not that the USDA wins any prize at regulating the big slaughterhouses) but if not, how are they regulated? Who oversees them? Who owns and operates them? Who checks for disease control (e-coli, mad cow prions, etc.)? And what makes them any more humane in their killing?
I find this interesting, but does not make me feel that any slaughter is humane, because it is taking the life of a sentient , feeling being who wants to live fully as much as you or I. Unless an animal is suffering badly in some way, I cannot see the justification in killing. In other words, the killing itself is an inhumane act.
I realize there are predatory animals that kill other animals in nature all the time, But they are the carnivores, and they act out of instinct, and they practice the only way they know and are capable of to feed themselves. We, as humans possess ethics and a conscience, and are capable of choosing and pursuing other dietary paths. In addition, we are not carnivores, really not even omnivores. Pigs, raccoons are examples of omnivores and they possess many enzymes for metabolizing many types of foods which we don’t have. Our physiology is really set up for the metabolism of fruits and vegetables.
Which makes it interesting that you use the phrase ” addicted to meat”, because there are those who do believe that meat eating is an addiction.. I’m not sure it is, but if so it would explain a lot.
This just out——–A newly released United Nations report urges a global shift to a plant based diet in order to slow climate change. The report cites the production of animal-based foods as the most significant factor in habitat destruction , air and water pollution, depopulation of fish and water depletion.
Barbara, these smaller scale slaughterhouses answer to state and fed regulations, absolutely. And one farmer I know has personally visited a family-run facility to see if it meets his standard for cleanliness and humane practice, in addition to passing state and federal regs.
meat addiction would certainly explain the popularity of fast food! If we support our local farmers–we can help stop the addiction to fast food and perhaps stop factory farming in its tracks, and in turn we can improve our health, etc. and also slow the pollution that you mentioned.
Hi, again, BilieD.—-Well, not to seem really dense, but federal regulations depend on the USDA for oversight and monitoring. Are you suggesting that the already overworked inefficient and biased USDA is now going to visit a bunch of small farms when they cannot even adequately monitor the large ones? And what state regulations for the slaughter of farm animals are you referring to? Are there state inspectors for the slaughter practices? Just how do they answer to regulations, as you say? Are there unannounced visits by inspectors? And what would they be looking for? Humane slaughter? cleanliness? Are they checking the meat for disease? We seem to be talking about family run slaughter houses?
O.k. So how do they do the slaughter? I mean if you were putting down a dog or cat it would be by injection to put them to sleep. But farming is first and foremost a business. To put down a cow would take a massive amount of costly sedative per cow, and the expertise and expense of someone trained to do it. Not to mention that the drug would then be in the meat and transmitted to humans. The traditional way is to cut the throats of animals and bleed them to death. I have never seen that as a kindly act. When you come to it, the breeding and raising of animals for the express purpose of killing them before they even have their life is unkindly.
Meat addiction, if it is true, would explain the vehemence with which meat eaters defend their habit. And explaining the popularity of fast food is also a good point. But the popularity of fast food is also based on being cheap. People will always go for that, because most of America wants and needs to budget,and can not afford elite meat. You and I would both like to see factory farming stop. But the demands of massive amounts of people call for mass production and small farms can’t sustain that. And I don’t really see how switching to elite meat will help an addiction to meat. Isn’t that a lot like saying I can cure my smoking addiction by switching to filtered cigarettes? You cure an addiction by not practicing the habit.
Here’s the new revision of the FSIS directive.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7120.1Rev2.pdf
Barbara–You’d be amazed at how much the overworked USDA picks on small operations and overlooks major health, safety and cleanliness issues of Big Agribusiness.
Of course, you probably know which pocket Big Agribusiness resides in…
There are a few books and films that adress this as well–Schlosser’s Fast Food Nation, for example, and the film Food Inc.
Barbara Day wrote: “… it is taking the life of a sentient , feeling being who wants to live fully as much as you or I. Unless an animal is suffering badly in some way, I cannot see the justification in killing. In other words, the killing itself is an inhumane act…”
I agree completely. “Humane slaughter” — no matter how it’s done — is an oxymoron.
Animal farming is inherently cruel, regardless of how big or small the business is.
Allright, we know that lots of members don’t want meat on the shelves (for human consumption, hee hee) – or maybe in the store at all, that’s been decided, right? but for those of us who want to eat meat, let’s use our network to support more sustainable/ “less harmful” ways of providing meat.
Yeah, eating meat is probably bad for the planet. so is driving my car. Eating sugar is bad for my teeth and slouching is bad for my back. I accept these things in my life to a certain degree.
Thank you, vegetarian brothers and sisters, for your passion, your commitment, your research, your fight. And I humbly ask you to excuse me as i choose differently.
Nice to hear the vegans out there. I’m a vegan too. Best thing I ever did in my life. It’s a lifestyle, not just a diet.
It is nice not having meat at the coop. As it is the only place I know of that doesn’t sell the stuff. If there are other sources of meat, why start carrying it? Most of the products that I buy at the coop have no other local sources.
Hi to everyone——I did a little research about slaughterhouses. There are indeed small slaughterhouses in Connecticut. They are called custom slaughterhouses, and small farmers may indeed take their animals there for slaughter. BUT this is only allowed for their personal food. They CANNOT sell the meat to the public.. Any meat raised to be sold to the public (as within the co-op) must go through the federally regulated slaughterhouses, of which there are three in Conn.
There are regulations on these custom slaughterhouses,as to how the slaughter can be done, but no one inspects them. State inspection programs were repealed in 1969. It’s anyone’s nightmare as to what might go on in these facilities.
So how it works is, a humane farmer raises the animals, then trucks them to a federally regulated slaughterhouse where they are strung up and killed along with animals from agribusiness.
Barbara,
Of course any meat sold to the public needs to be from a federally regulated and inspected facility. Liability anyone?
Can you cite your sources? I would like to explore further re: custom slaughterhouses. Also,I was not referring to ‘custom’ slaughterhouses in my previous comments.
Barbara also brings up some good points here: the small farmer is finding it increasingly difficult to stay small and make a living. Know you farmer, know your food.
Talk to the farmer who sold you his or her food. Ask him or her about their process. Shake his or her hand. Ask lots of questions. The small farmers I have spoken to really care about quality and health, and of course, humane treatment of their meat animals. No feedlots here.
I know the farmer I buy from personally, and he is more than willing to answer any and all questions. He gave me a tour of the farm, and was quite vocal in his support of humane and sustainable practices and distaste of big agribusiness, and not just for meat. The small slaughterhouse he uses has never been cited for health violations, as opposed to some of the larger operations, for example in the midwest.
Support your local small farm! Ask questions, and be an educated consumer.
Thank you for the discussion, Barbara.
REMEMBER, the farmer may use the small slaughterhouse for his food only, but cannot sell it to the public or through retail, so it is not germane to the issue of meat at the co-op. Meat sold at the co-op will still have gone through the horror of federal slaughterhouses.. REMEMBER, there is no meat inspection program for the small custom slaughterhouse. REMEMBER, animals are still castrated, force bred, disbudded, and branded, all very painful processes, whether on large or small farms. REMEMBER small farmers still get their chicks from large hatcheries, where babies of no use are ground up alive, REMEMBER, the world cannot be fed with local meat. It is no answer to factory farms. REMEMBER, organic meat production is inhumane because antibiotics can’t be used if an animal is sick. If antibiotics are used to nurse an animal to health, the meat cannot be labeled organic. REMEMBER all meat production contributes to world hunger and pollution, and sets up a system where many go hungry so others can eat meat. REMEMBER the land used to graze cows or to grow grain to feed cows could be used to feed many more people. REMEMBER , meat is a contaminating product which must be constantly monitored for spread of bacterial infection, even to produce. REMEMBER, meat eating is a strong contributor to human illness such as osteoporosis, heart and vascular disease, liver and kidney disease, and many cancers. REMEMBER the very system of raising feeling sentient beings , only for the purpose of killing them, is far from an ethical act. REMEMBER, there is no harmony in slaughter.
Yeah, BillieD thanks —it was an interesting discussion. I think we probably have exhausted it, so I’ll be moving on. But I’m very glad we did this.
The year is 1850. The State of Connecticut bans slavery, but Mississippi does not. One plantation owner in Mississippi, let’s call him Farmer John, treats his slaves more humanely than does any other. He provides his slaves ample room in their sleeping quarters, feeds them organic food, does not dose them with antibiotics, and because he does not quite work them to death, his slaves live in relative health compared to most other slaves. But he still executes all his healthy slaves once they reach 15 years old, their age of their full biological growth, after which they no longer would turn a profit.
Many of the good citizens of Connecticut work in textile mills that import cotton from Mississippi plantations, and most of the good citizens of Connecticut wear apparel made of cotton fabrics spun in those mills. (A few pesky abolitionists shun cotton, and instead wear clothing made of hemp grown at home in Connecticut.) Farmer John develops a cotton hybrid that can tolerate the cold of Connecticut, and figures to save the cost of transportation by growing it in Willimantic. So when John proposes to move his plantation and all his slaves to Willimantic, he first must seek exemption from the Connecticut legislature to keep his slaves in bondage.
Farmer John’s campaign publicizes that most citizens in Willimantic already wear clothes made from inhumanely grown cotton, so would be better off wearing humanely grown cotton. And because they would save on transportation costs, the good citizens of Willimantic even would be saving money.
The year is 2010. The good citizens of Willimantic now face a vote. Invite humane slave driver Farmer John into their community, and reward him for being a humane slave driver who nevertheless executes his slaves at age 15 as do all the inhumane slave drivers, or keep Farmer John banished far away in Mississippi with all the inhumane slave drivers.
I don’t understand what is human about pulling families apart and killing them? it is extremely violent to eat an animal, and it doesn’t matter who did the deed,as the animal was murdered for you “the meat eater”". this is violent no matter how it is done. Peace Abby in Mass. is a great resource to visit on this matter…..
as for selling cut up animals, I only joined this coop because I believed this was a safe place to shop, if the coop starts to sell meat then I am back to square one again with no local place to by food, the only other place is Edge of the woods” in New Haven and it is too far….
I agree with the prior comments about the dog food having cut up animals in them, we should have vegetarian dog food on the shelves, is that that this is all about???
yes, Beth-Ann——it would kind of leave vegan/vegetarians looking for another place to shop.
Some possibilities are: forming a vegetarian buyer’s club and dealing directly with local vegetable farmers, those who do not use animals. There are some catalogues which sell, not produce ,but other off the shelf items such as olive oil, almond butter, etc. Natural Lifestyle is one. Of course there are at home gardens and doing such things as sprouting or indoor soil gardens in the wintertime. There’s Garden of Light in Glastonbury, which, unfortunately is being done in by Whole Foods in Glastonbury. They sell some produce and have never sold meat.
hi barbara, forming a vegetarian buyers club sounds interesting….
Hi All- just to let anyone who has not heard the vote was 330(+/-) for the meat buyers club and 105(+/-) against. Thank you to all members who voted and I hope we can all find ways to continue to support the co-op and our co-operative principles, despite our personal views on meat eating / selling…etc. Obviously there are about 4600+ members who did not vote but still it was good turn out given voting trends.
For details as to how the meat buyers club will be organized pls. inquire at the store.
Thanks
phoebe